In this episode, Ashley Paré speaks with Clemencia Herrera and Cecilia Del Cid about why it’s historically so difficult for women and Latinas to earn what we’re worth and much more! We dive deep into money relationship, self-advocacy, negotiating as women of color and the systems that can keep us stuck in fear.


Clemencia 00:00 Hello hola buenos dos. It is the Chancleta Generation podcast Hello, hello. So, as you hopefully know by now, I am Clemencia and I own Moira Studio and I do advertising to you guys, Latinos, and hopefully in a very authentic way because otherwise, no good.

Cecelia 00:32 And I am Cecilia, environmental and social justice practitioner and we ran from Latin American community we were in conversation here with Clem.

Clemencia 00:40 Yes. And we’re so excited. Ladies, listen up, because you’re going to want to hear everything that Ashley says we have Ashley Pare’ in the house. Yes, yes, yes. So super excited to have her on the show today. She is a leadership and negotiation coach, and the CEO and founder of own your worth, she helps clients gain recognition for their impact at work. Yes. articulate their value. Yes, double Yes. And earn more money. Hell yeah. She’s been featured in The New York Times CNN Money, Good Morning, America and more. And she’s a sought-after speaker and you can check out her popular TEDx talk called have your cake and negotiate too, girl. Welcome!

Ashley Pare 01:41 I’m so excited to be here. Especially after that introduction.

Clemencia 01:46 Girls, you’re just like doing God’s work here. Seriously?

Ashley Pare 01:50 Yes. Thank you for having me. Let’s do it. Do more of God’s work.

Clemencia 01:54 For you guys out there, I’ve known Ashley for many years. And she’s amazing. And like, we’ve seen each other’s careers just like, you know, go the distance. And it’s been really exciting to see, you know, like, I was there when she did her TEDx talk, and it was super exciting. And so, I’ve wanted to have you on the show for a long time and this just like, it’s such a treat to have you so awesome.

Ashley Pare 02:22 I’m excited to be here. You helped birth the Own Your Worth brand.

Clemencia 02:27 Yes, we worked together on the on your worth brand. And it was super fun to do. And you’re just always just such an awesome, awesome person. I love the mission. It was just like, so cool. Like, you know, helping ladies negotiate. And, you know, Own Your Worth, that was just such a good name. I didn’t come up with that. I can’t take credit for that. That was all Ashley and it’s such a good name Own Your Worth. Yeah, exactly. Because there’s gotta be some power coming into this. You’re not powerless to this. Like, it’s not just like, oh, at the whim of whoever wants to like, you know, set you’re racist! So, let’s talk about this. Actually, why did you start doing what you’re doing? Where did it come from?

Ashley Pare 03:21 Well, it came out of pain, essentially, this burning desire to not feel like I wasn’t enough. So, in the beginning, selfishly, I knew I had a successful career, I was climbing the corporate ladder, I was in human resources, close to the C-suite. I had access to salary data. I’m a white woman, there was a lot of amazing things happening to me and my career, and I got to see the good, the bad and the ugly, and everything in between inside of the corporate structure. And it was exhausting. And I was burnt out. And eventually, the higher I went up the corporate ladder, the harder it was for me to self-advocate. The scarier became the riskier it became, even when I had the rulebook, even when I was negotiating on a daily basis with folks even when, again, I had access and you know, I was people who say, hey, HR, like I was a scary like, “ooh, we’re going to talk to HR” like I had, power. And still it was really hard for me to self-advocate and it came to a head when I asked my boss for a raise, just like many of the men had done in my company before me and I was told no, I was told no, I was told by my boss that he was angry at me for asking. And it was a big gut-punch – punch in my gut because I knew he was going to say no.

Clemencia 05:03 Oh my goodness, my jaws on the floor right now. What? How dare they?

Ashley Pare 05:07 Yes. And I, you know, I knew the answer was probably going to be no. But I held off on the asking because I wasn’t ready for the change. But once I heard that, no, I couldn’t afford the truth anymore, that my role wasn’t that valued, I wasn’t that valued, I was replaceable. And you know what, that wasn’t going to work for me anymore. So, from that place of pain and grief of having to let go of this vision for my corporate career dream that I had, I decided that I wasn’t okay. And you know, I actually allowed a lot of it to happen, because I wasn’t feeling worthy. I wasn’t feeling good enough. And I thought, if this is happening to me, again, at the top, in HR, as a white woman, with access to travel, and all kinds of companies, and then you know, what’s happening? What are other women facing, and I wanted to share everything I knew about how to be successful in this corporate game, and how to remove the fear around talking about money, which was a big one. And you know, what the crazy thing is that, not only did that end, but then I left it, I was totally out now. It’s one of those weird things, it just didn’t work out anymore. And they hired a woman of color to replace me, and they paid her even less money than what I was making. And that really pissed me off.

Clemencia 06:38 I’m like in shock, but I’m also not in shock, like…

Ashley Pare 06:44 So I went off on my way and started teaching salary negotiation workshops, and things started to heal my inner world around my feelings about worthiness and what I was deserving of, and why I was too afraid to speak up and what I was actually faced with on a daily basis, and I use, again, that pain as my fuel to grow myself, heal myself, and then share that with others. Because my goal right now is to really not only help women get paid fairly and competitively for their work, but to help them own their dreams, like, tap into their wildest, biggest dreams and go after it, whether that’s in the corporate world or not. Because we only have one life to live, and we don’t have to play by the rules that don’t work for us.

Clemencia 07:32 And some of those roles were set by men.

Ashley Pare 07:34 Well, yes. I thought that goes unsaid but yeah, let’s say it. Those rules were not set by women.

Clemencia 07:42 Yeah, so super interesting. And I always love how, you know, it’s sad to think that, you know, a lot of our some of our, some of people’s purpose comes from pain, or from trauma or from suffering. But, you know, also is very cathartic to turn this pain and trauma into something that you’re giving to the world to be like, I refuse to have other people feel the same way that I felt, and I am going to, you know, try to change things. So, I, you know, not another woman feels this way or not another person feels this way. Do you know, it’s kind of like it’s very, it’s very healing to be able to turn pain and suffering into your purpose. Yes. Personally, like that was also for me.

Ashley Pare 08:34 I know, it’s my, like, I know, I went through that, to find my mission and my purpose, like, at the time it stunk, and that’s what I’ll tell anyone listening and YouTube. Is that like, yeah, the pain stinks. But if you can, work with it, learn from it, hang in there, you can use it, you can use it to step into your power actually.

Clemencia 08:56 Having the courage to say, I’m not going to take this anymore. And I am actually going to try to do something so nobody else had. So, it’s kind of like there, it takes some like, getting out of the, the little mouse wheel thing. And you’re like, okay, I am getting off this ride. And I’m going to actually go and do something completely different, which is scary. And it’s, it’s like, uncharted territory. And, but then that becomes, you know, the thing that you’re like, this is the hill that I’m going to die on. Yeah, like I’m carrying this flag, and I will, you know, I will take it with me.

Cecelia 09:41 Thank you for sharing that, Ashley. And I also think it’s, it takes courage but it also takes a little bit of privilege because a lot of people cannot afford to leave positions and cannot afford to ask for the raise because they, you know, as you described, like what is the market for people who hold other more marginalized identities and like, that is I think the value of, for me, what I appreciate is your transparency and honesty of sharing. Like, I can see the difference between what was happening with my male colleagues. And you know, and I have this position privilege, I’ve had education, I have access to information, I can see I know what is happening in this field. What happens to people who don’t know? And in that lack of transparency is where the power is being held, right? Like, yes, for HR. And I always still Clemencia like that’s the beauty of unions. So, people can come together and negotiate a bargain and put everything in a contract, and everything is spelled out and people can ask. Yeah, and then there’s also other places like coops who have very transparent scales of salary. Right. So, like, I think that I appreciate so much your honesty and your vulnerability and sharing like these was, with all the information I held with the power, I felt like I knew, and I still felt the value, and then I could see how other folks were even more devalued. And that that is the motivation for like, to take that courage and your privilege to that other level. Yeah,

Clemencia 11:23 yeah. But also, it’s like more, you know, unions are limited to like certain industries, but it’s like, you know, the more women of color are educated, the more they’re going to get into corporate America too. And the more they’re going to have to do this, too, like, there’s not going to be in the Union for them. They’re on their own.

Cecelia 11:42 They used to be they’ve been like, I mean, they used to be, and that is a whole other conversation, right. But that this idea that why we cannot have those bargaining units and as a group, and that has been something that has been eroded over time, but all I’m just talking is about the concept of having access to transparency, and having access to the information, what do we do with that information, and actually saying, I have all this knowledge. And that is fire me to build this ability to like, take that to other folks which I think is beautiful.

Ashley Pare 12:16 Yeah. And when I first started this path, and my mission, I am just recently moved back to Boston and Boston wanted to be one of the first cities to close the gender pay gap. And that’s how I got involved in the work here. And it really does require not only women, to advocate for ourselves, but it requires leaders, both men and women to advocate for their team members. And it requires CEOs, and it requires organizations it requires people or requires lawmakers requires our system, right? And we need a massive transformation effort and the law because as you’re saying, the laws are not, if there’s no bargaining unit, what can we fall back on? If advocating for ourselves isn’t working? Right? What do we have? And so, there are starting to be some laws and some cities around the US around pay transparency around, and Massachusetts in particular, right? Not asking: so please do not share your current salary that you’re earning with a potential new employer because it’s irrelevant, right? And it’s actually now illegal for a company to ask you what you’re earning until you get a job offer because that perpetuates these wage gaps that perpetuates being paid or underpaid. When your role may change, the responsibilities may change, right? And that’s, again, transparency, there’s a huge debate around this, of course, we’re in a capitalistic society, but there’s a huge debate right around the transparency piece. And for women, it’s going to benefit us in so many ways, just by at least having that knowledge of like, wow, what’s out there, what’s possible, because that is a huge piece, again, from a privilege perspective. I got salary data so early on in my career, and I remember thinking what the CEO makes that and he does what sounds like, I’m going to make that someday. And it just really motivated me to see what was possible. And that’s what I hope to inspire others.

Clemencia 14:24 Even if you have the knowledge, and you have the data, you know, approaching the topic is scary to a lot of women.

Cecelia 14:36 So I was going to say that takes us a little bit into like, that you mentioned, like the relationship to money, like, even like when you say how do we fall back? And even amongst, like, I know that there were many generations that will never feel comfortable asking their coworkers or their peers, what is your salary? Not even? Because maybe, but it’s this idea that you might be in competition. If you’re making more, are they going to come for what this like is the only just an amount and then they’re going to take that serious some kind of mentality, which I think is it’s a false is a myth is a false premise and, and also, culturally and we thought when we were talking about how to address it like, and Clem and I had a conversation with another organization, a report that came about the gender gap and the Latinas with a bachelor’s degree are some of the groups that earn less in that gap with a bachelor’s degree, right. So, when you compare him with other groups of ethnic, racial, of women, Latinas with a bachelor’s earn the least. It’s not like lack of resources and network. So, there’s other forces at work. So, you know, that’s what I’m interested in hearing how you notice what you know, about like, relations, culture and family – relationships to money for women?

Ashley Pare 16:01 Yes, yes, this is a huge, important piece to the puzzle from a personal perspective, and also cultural, and I feel like, it’s just a lot of times it’s glossed over, or we don’t actually truly understand the impact that money has over our entire life, like money touches everything. But the truth of it is money, the energy of money is like neutral, it’s neutral. It’s not good or bad. But we ourselves and our culture, assign good or bad value to money, and that from the very, very early ages, like, it just grows, and if it goes on notice, and so a lot of my work is helping women to understand and become aware of their relationship with money and what they learned about money, and then how to start creating new beliefs around money. So that way, they can feel confident, to advocate to talk about it to ask their peers.

Cecelia 17:00 Give us some examples of some of those things that they’ve heard from women?

Ashley Pare 17:05 Yes. So, we’ve all heard the story that money doesn’t grow on trees. That’s one of those sayings that everyone just throws around, “money doesn’t grow on trees,” but what we’re actually saying is like money is scarce. And if you internalize that, you start feeling like I have to hang on to everything I have. And so money, right, women, maybe don’t invest in themselves, so they don’t ask for help, again, health care, mental health support, they don’t, aren’t able or don’t want to invest in, I don’t know a new car, a certain thing, like their own personal development, because they’re afraid that if they spend what they’ve worked so hard for, they’ll have less so that’s one example. Then there’s just depending on you – so our childhood plays a huge piece of this. So, your race, your gender, your ethnic background, your socio-economic status, the country you whether or not you’re a first or second generation here in the US, or your country of origin, right, every so this these are all the layers of what create your relationship with money. And a lot of folks that are first or second generation here in the US, what I’m hearing, right is that they, they learn from their parents to work really, really hard to be grateful for what they have to not rock the boat. Right to keep their head down. And a look, a lot of us have learned don’t talk about money, it’s rude.

Clemencia 18:34 We’ve talked so many times about that – we’re just going to keep my head down. And just like, be thankful for what I got. And like, you know what, they gotta be thankful for what they got with me too. Yes, like, I’m actually doing things for them too – I’m bringing knowledge and bringing experience. I’m bringing my you know, my Smarty my brains like, also my time yeah, you know, they are also getting something out of it.

Ashley Pare 19:06 But I think we’ve again, as if we talk about women as typical caregivers, we have this added layer of we should also be taking care of others because we should consider other people’s needs. So that’s another sneaky way that as women we learn don’t ask for too much or right, we even have a relationship around money around what we view, quote unquote, rich people, right? There’s how do you envision like, what do you think about when you think of a rich person? Is it positive characteristics or negative characteristics? What expectations do you put on somebody with a lot of money versus when you feel like there’s the struggle and so it just it’s – one question I like to ask my clients is what did you learn about money from your parents? Whether it was spoken to you directly, or they modeled it? An example that I have is my, my dad, when my parents divorced, and I was around 12 years old, my dad was showing me the child support checks that he was giving my mom. Not ideal. But everybody, so I have a lot of siblings – and the same event – that event can impact each of us individually. And so, what I took from that was number one, I’m a burden. Number two, I have to work really hard to make money. And number three, money is the answer to my freedom, to my ability to not have to ever ask for help and to get out of, you know, whatever I didn’t want to be a part of, and that kind of set me up for my career and what I felt about money in the beginning. And when you attach so much of your life and safety, to having or not having money, it makes advocating at work feel really, really freaking scary, because it feels like everything is on the line.

Clemencia 21:11 Yeah, it makes you live in survival mode. You’re just like, I can only get to this, like I’m always doing the bare minimum all the time.

Ashley Pare 21:22 And something else I’ve noticed, I think we you alluded to this, I think I find if I’m working with a woman of color. I feel, again, this is general, but there’s almost like this, like, there’s an awareness that, you know, I’m probably underpaid. You know, I know, I’ve had to work my butt off, you know, like, I’m going to have to go in there and there is a risk. But I am going to say that I’m a woman of color, and it’s more likely that I’m being underpaid. And so, let’s work together. Right? When I’m coaching somebody, it’s like, they’re, I feel like the and this is also for second generation clients of mine, there’s less of a fear to actually speak the truth to like, what’s happening, because right then they’re living, they’re living that experience. And again, it’s a generalization, but I feel like for my own experience, it’s almost like there’s more of a fear to rock the boat sometimes and say, like, one of the questions I would encourage people to ask your employer is how many people of color on your leadership team – how many people of color on the on the board? And I feel like even from my perspective, I’ve been afraid in the past to talk about that, because it feels Yeah, this is part of me probably growing up white – it feels almost wrong or like too intrusive. But this is the stuff that we need to – me as me as a white woman, I need to be talking about this. We need to get this information. And yeah, it’s important.

Clemencia 22:58 Yeah, but it makes you almost act out of fear all the time. You know, all your decisions are based on fear, fear of losing your job, fear of, like losing your car or losing your house. Yes. And if you like, ask a question, then, you know, you might lose your job. And it’s like, that’s no way to live.

Ashley Pare 23:22 No

Cecelia 23:24 It’s a great motivator like fear is how the system has been set up and

Clemencia 23:29 but it’s not the best motivator.

Cecelia 23:32 But it’s a strong motivator like that is what moves a lot of like how our society is organized right now so it’s there you know how Ashley mentioned systems and all the layers and I think it’s so important that you framed it that way and this for me, because what you just describe resonated highly for me like I feel I feel like my mother had a very healthy relationship with money I think I have a very healthy relationship with money but you said something like you see money as the ability for you to have freedom for me was like if I cannot help my parents who make more money, I cannot make enough money for me and take care of all my needs my education myself and my career and I can take care of this one. So then my parents, my siblings are my friends and my mom has always been very generous and when I think about like her generation like my aunts or siblings is like, I can see the difference between how they will live with money and I she always has, I feel like she’s always loose like she shares her money a lot and it comes back. I find that I well, you know, there’s a couple of things you said like seeing the money as an expense versus an investment. And when you were talking about money doesn’t grow on trees I thought it grows in the beauty of compound interest is like it doesn’t grow on trees, grows in compound interest, but then I always tell people when I made the decision to take some student loans for my education in a private institution, that gave me a lot of resources, but I also felt like, I want to look at this as an investment in myself. I wasn’t taking a super large loan, which I just want to make very clear, it was very moderate, and I had a lot of other resources, and I had the time to do other steps. But I looked at those ones, and I’m still paying some of them after 15 years, as an investment, that gave some foundation for me to have other opportunities versus an expense.

Clemencia 25:43 But in a way, sometimes that is seen as selfish, right? Like, we’re being selfish. If we actually invest the money in ourselves, instead of like, you know, helping your parents out first, and things like that. In order for me to help my family, I need to prepare myself to do it. Otherwise, I’m just like, I’m stuck. I need to build myself up first. It’s just like, you know, in the planes, like you put on your mask on first, and then you put on somebody else’s mask on, you know, you gotta take care of yourself first, and you gotta invest in yourself first. And that’s not selfish.

Ashley Pare 26:21 That is part of the culture around money as well, which is work, you have to work harder and harder and harder, and the path to burnout is the only way to receive and that is just not true. We deserve rest. Like, the more we rest, the more we receive, the more that we invest, the more that we receive back. Right? So, this is the abundance mindset of money. And I really just want to reiterate, because we talked about fear. But if you are somebody who’s stuck feeling stuck, right now that money feels overwhelming that you’re living paycheck to paycheck builds a bill or like, your one broken car down away from like, feeling like Oh, my God, then that position… Number one, it does feel scary. And yet, you can take small steps to regain control of your options. So, I know that if there’s a fear of asking for more money, because you may really lose your job if you do speak up, because let’s face it, that’s real potential. When you advocate when you negotiate there are risks you can hear no, you could lose a job. I mean, honestly, you’re better off knowing that sooner rather than later. But if you need the money, right, then do what you can, like I have a lot of clients are like, oh, you know, I accepted, I’m so mad at myself, because I accepted a job and a lot less money than I wanted to and now I’m here and I’m stuck. No, it’s okay. It’s okay. Notice where you are and start taking small steps to transform your relationship with money, to build a skill to take the time to interview to ask for help whenever it is you need so that way. Because you’re no good, as you’re saying, you’re no good to anybody if you’re burned out and you’re afraid. And so, we want fear to be a motivator. But for many of us, we don’t know where to begin. And having the ability to ask for help to receive help is also connected to receiving more money. Because it’s okay to say I can’t do it all. And again, if you’ve learned from a cultural perspective that you should be the breadwinner, you should work really hard. You should take care of all the kids, you should make the food, you should do all this, you should do all that then it can be really hard to say hold on, what about me? Because you’ve learned to put other people’s needs first and all of this crashes in at work. And when you’re in a job and when you’re trying to get paid more and you want your boss to recognize how much of a badass you are.

Clemencia 28:51 Yeah, yeah. we are going back to the sphere, I was thinking like, it is a great motivator, if you if you turn the fear into, like action that you’re like going to do for yourself. But if, but for me, for example, I grew up in a very, like, my dad was very competitive, and he wanted us to be extremely competitive too. And to me that turned into like, fear of failure. You know, and so it was paralyzing to me, it was the opposite. Like you instead of me going yeah, I’m just going to try it. And sometimes I did. But then sometimes I will be like, things like I will be so scared of failing that I wouldn’t even try it because I was just like, I’m terrified. I don’t even want to try this. So, it’s like, it was a very big battle in my mind about like, what am I going to do with this fear? Like, am I going to let it paralyze me? Or am I going to just go through with it and then like, it took, it took therapy and things like that for me to actually say, Okay, I’m actually I’m going to move through this fear, and I’m going to, do take some action for myself. And it’s like, it’s, it takes it takes, it takes a lot of like breaking barriers to make it a motivator sometimes it’s paralyzing sometimes it’s the opposite, sometimes it makes you not do things.

Ashley Pare 30:21 Yes, and thank you for sharing that Clem, because therapy is a hugely powerful tool to begin growth and healing. And so is having a mentor, so is working with the coach, right, finding somebody, anybody again, that place where you get to where it’s like, I’m so stuck, and paralyzed that I need help. Like, I hope you don’t have to get there. That’s what happened to me, but if you do, money is so interconnected with our emotional world and our feelings of self-worth. Again, if we go back to what I share, the energy of money is neutral, but it becomes super entangled with our self-worth. I can give somebody a script, right? Well, I’m going to give all the resources to everyone here and they can have my scripts, they can have whatever they need to sit down, and how do you start a conversation with your boss? How do you ask for money, but if emotionally, you are so afraid, and you don’t have the courage, and you don’t have the capability because it fears keeping you stuck then, right as in my case, I knew all the rules, but that wasn’t helpful, I was still paralyzed, to speak up because of that fear. So it is, it is why I’m doing what I’m doing. It’s also why what’s possible on the other side of moving through that fear is so beautiful and powerful. And so, thank you, ladies, for bringing this conversation up. Because if we can just unlock one person and have one person, get off that fear hamster wheel and try to do something, right, whether it’s asked for help, whether it’s talked to their boss, whether it’s, you know, call their parents and say, Hey, what happened here, whatever they need, right to begin that process, then to me, that’s helping them own their worth and it’s enough.

Clemencia 32:04 And that also, that one thing that is so important, asking for help, you know, it’s like, recognizing that I can’t do this on my own. I’ve gotten this far on my own, and I actually need to help like I can, I don’t see I don’t see a way through, and it’s okay, to not see our way through because we can’t wear we can’t do everything we want to but we can’t and so it’s good to like ask a friend like it like friends or like, my friends are always just like building my ego up all the time. Like, you’re so amazing. Sometimes it’s like, hey, can you just tell me how awesome I am for like, a couple of hours while we have some coffee. And then I can, you know, get the courage to go and try to get a raise.

Ashley Pare 32:56 That’s another piece to asking for help and supporting surrounding yourself with supportive community like I’ve had to pay 1000s of dollars at this point, to create a new network for myself, of business support, therapists, coaches. I had to recreate my branding team. All of these things that I’ve invested in, I wasn’t born with this amazing supportive network, right? I had to work earn for it and create it. And that’s another reason why being paid fairly and competitively is so important, especially as women because we need that option and choice to either choose to take care of ourselves. I’m a newish mom, right? Like having kids, we need money to survive in our world. Yes, but it’s more about being able to have these choices and options, so you don’t feel stuck.

Clemencia 33:54 Yeah, we’ve talked about in other episodes, the concept of having it all. And like to some people, it’s just like, you can’t even envision it, because it’s just like, it sounds selfish. It sounds impossible. It sounds unattainable. And it’s just like, what does it really look for you to have it all? Just write it down. Put it on, put it on the vision board, whatever, and then and then, like, work towards that. And this is where we get out of work or of acting out of fear and we start walking into acting out of power. Like my dreams. Like, this is what I want. Even if you’re living paycheck to paycheck, like what is it that you really want? And what can you do? Like what little steps you can take more to actually get what you want in like, in the concept of having it all to me, like, you know, years ago, it was like, silly like this is just like kid stuff, you know, like who thinks oh, I mean at all, like, who can think of like, you know, being paid all this money and they haven’t time to, like, go on vacation or you know, or whatever, like, go out and treat myself that doesn’t exist, you know, but like, but then you’re like, Okay, maybe I could try. I could attempt and at least I will be in a much better place than not doing anything.

Ashley Pare 35:24 The what if question is really powerful – dreaming is so powerful. And that is also, as you said, it can be stomped out of us as kids, right, get a good job, this is another one around money, work hard, go to school, get a good job, those are your three things that equal success, right when I was growing up, because your parents want you to be safe. And they’re all meaning well, but that doesn’t always serve us and doesn’t prepare us for the workforce, which is that you have to advocate, you have to over advocate, you have to be prepared, you have to fight so I think you maybe internalized the feeling Clem it sounds like in the past of like, “I am a failure.” Right? For me, my internalization was “I’m not enough,” right. And there’s a lot of root feelings underneath the fear. If you can get to that route, you can change it. And so, I really want to like, reiterate what’s possible if you allow yourself to dream because that belief or that fear is not the truth, your dream is actually meant to be a compass.

Cecelia 36:35 But I think Clem you also just mentioned something that is something that has resonated for me for a long time, you don’t actually want to be rich, you want to be free, you want to have the freedom of time – the abundance of time. So, I have to say, for me, I feel like my salary meets my needs and the work that it does for me is in service, it fulfills me. And, yeah, I could take a little more money, but I’ll probably, you know, do the work that I do for the money I received which feels fair to me. But also, I could earn more money, but if it is eating more into my free time, because another place will require much more of me, that is a tradeoff I’m not willing to do at this point, right. In other moments, I’ve needed it. And, and a lot of the time, I think, whenever I hear people talk about, like, we need more money, once we get to that spot, which is like my basic needs are covered. Now what the extra or the surplus would do is like, does it eat into time? And I know for a lot of immigrant communities or other people who have cared and are like first generation stuff that – we’re still in that work hard like that, this idea, like if you do not work as hard, someone else could take your job could take your position, like you’re replaceable, but also starts eating into their free time into their freedom to do the things that you’d like to do to have that rest that you still deserve to be with family and enjoy yourself.

Clemencia 38:09 And also to do something that you love to turn your work into your purpose or turn your purpose into your work. You know, that thing that like me and Ashley were just talking about before, like that’s another thing that was not in the books for me is like, Oh, well, if I want to do something that fulfills me, I might need to just like volunteer when, or who the hell has the time to volunteer? You know, I’m like working I had a full-time job I was freelancing outside of my full-time job is like when I Oh, am I going to volunteer do anything? I’m just like, you know, what, how can I? How can I turn my dream off? Like what I want to or where I want to put my stamp on the world and turn that into like money?

Ashley Pare 38:55 I have a question for maybe for both of you. But I will ask you if that is a money belief you have or the truth, meaning I hear this a lot. If I go to the next level, and if I desire more, it means I’m going to have to make more I have to work more. It means I’m going to have to sacrifice my free time, my care, my rest, my family, in order to make more. Right. And I would ask to invite you to both think about whether or not that’s just an internal glass ceiling that you’ve created or internalized from what again, we’ve learned about how you earn money because it is not really all about input and output. There doesn’t have to be this Equal Exchange. It starts first with owning your worth and yes, designing your ideal life and then allowing it to come to you. Right because time is not renewable. And this is if we bring it back to the transparency conversation. This is I would say, one of the cons I think of is transparency because looking at the end of the day, what you say Yes to is what you accept. And Cecilia if you are happy, if you are fulfilled if you are content and all of your needs are met, oh my goodness, yes, yes, yes, yes. Enjoy it and celebrate that. And you don’t have to desire more. Right? But somebody, somebody who says like you should be making more like we don’t want, we want everyone who says yes, like, it has to feel good to you. So, if you’re in that neutral place, or that contentment, that’s great, it doesn’t matter about how much you’re earning. But if you feel that you are number one underpaid, if you know you’re underpaid, if you’re over giving and the exchange of value and service, your time and energy is not equal, then this is where these conversations are really powerful. But the goal in life, I would say, right, is to be in this place where you feel happy and content and fulfilled and supported and that you have enough, and more than enough would be great, but right it all comes down to you personally about what’s your ideal life. Like some people love to travel, some people don’t. And that’s okay. So how do you use again, the money that you are creating to fund and fuel your ideal life?

Clemencia 41:10 Yeah, I mean, like, being a woman of color that owns a business is exhausting, like, you know, as a vendor, I’ve had to negotiate rates all the time, all the time, or just like, this is our rate. “Oh, that’s the rate? Like, that’s expensive. Oh, yeah. But you paid the other guy the same. Or more than is like, in those conversations are really tough. And like, just, you know, last year, I remember calling a friend of mine who, you know, she’s also, you know, in a really good executive position. And I was just like, oh, my God, I’m in the situation, I just don’t know, I was like, really upset. And she just said to me, please remember that the answer is not working more. And I was just like that, like, it really clicked for me in that moment. Like, the answer is not to work more. Like just don’t, because that was that was always my reaction. Like, if something was going wrong, I would just like dive in, headfirst and just work more in that in my mind. I was like, yes, I just need to do more like, how much more do I need? Do I have to do like, I have been burned out so many times, like sick, like actual physically sick, from, you know, from burnout. And is like, no, I am not willing to do this again. No, like, I this is putting this toll on my body and my mind and, and then my family, my husband, like, you know, he also has to listen to me, though, going through all this crap. So, you know, like, Am I willing to put all of this through the wringer again, just because like, you know, something happened and I just need to do more like, that whole things like, do more do better.

Ashley Pare 43:11 So kind of you found out that working harder, it was never going to be enough. And where I’m hearing you say is you decided to finally put up a boundary. Finally, number one, decide that, hey, I am enough. I’m good enough. My work is great. And if somebody is right, this is what I would recommend, somebody doesn’t want to pay me for what I’m asking, great, we’re not a good fit. But when you put up that boundary and finally said no, I’m guessing you have to have a lot more freedom and rest and health and probably more ideal clients come your way.

Clemencia 43:40 Yes, definitely. But you know, it’s funny, it’s like, even if you think that you have healed some of these things, they sneak up on you sometimes and then something comes up and then you see yourself again acting out of fear in like, you know, not letting go of a client because you’re scared that you know, this this revenue that you’re losing. I have other friends that also have their own businesses and we talk about this all the time. Oh, staying with deadbeat clients because you need the money and, and like, it’s the same way you stay with a deadbeat job because it pays you and you’re scared. And it’s like the job market and blah, blah, there’s all these things that you put, it’s kind of like its head-trash!

Ashley Pare 44:31 Yes, it’s head trash. And it’s also an opportunity for you to say, well, what if? What am I going to gain? So, you know, the path, right? Everyone knows the path that they’ve been on and where they’re going, if nothing changes, right? We don’t do anything, we’re going to get more of the same and so the opportunity is to say, what if I did something different? What could possibly be, if I said no to this what do I make yes for? and that’s again, from this abundance place of, there’s so much to go around. There is money on trees – money is everywhere, it’s in the ether. It’s available! You just have to open up for her and get ready to go like yeah, I am enough I am money. I am rich, I am ready.

Clemencia 45:11 Reaching into the ether and growing some money.

Cecelia 45:13 Ashley, I’m sure you have like a whole set of things that when you think of like coaching, negotiating, but what are some of like your top three, like if people could do at lease this one thing, these three things, I’m sure, like, every person who comes to you has to know, do the conversation fine, you know, get those routines have like, more like tailor programs. But like, when I think of negotiating, I don’t know, like, I grew up in Guatemala. And like, when I just remember going to the market and part of like going to the market was kind of like negotiating like bargain to like, with the farmers, right? And like I my mom was really good at it. And I wasn’t really like you have to learn to be like, what, how much did you buy it? I sent you this and you better come out with some money back and you’re like culturally about the regular market really stuff? And I think it was, you know, there was a given a take, right? And I kind of changed a little bit. So, I go to a supermarket and negotiate? No, I paid the price that they said like, why do I know she would people who are more like growing like a smaller? You know, like, I have a different view of that. But I think that that learning of going like kind of having a conversation about money was something that I grew up culturally, mainly, when negotiating here is that that sense of like, can I go to the supermarket and like that’s the that’s the price they get? I’m not going to go but people bring coupons. People bring discounts, people use other like other things, right? So, there are always kind of like, ways in which you are in this conversation when there’s two sides and one has a job or money, and someone doesn’t. What are some of those basic very core things that are important for negotiation in general?

Ashley Pare 47:10 So I want to make sure I’m understanding. So, I think it’s amazing that you’ve had that healthy discussion around money growing up right?

Clemencia 47:16 Yeah, It’s very rare.

Ashley Pare 47:23 You said your mom was generous. It seems like you’ve talked about money or money wasn’t this scary or silent hush, hush thing, right? Because that creates a barrier if that was what your childhood was like. Right? And so, I would say, let me understand the question. Again, you want me to share my top tips for somebody who’s thinking about negotiating whether it’s at a job, rates, like talking to a partner, like talking about money? Yes?

Cecelia 47:50 When you think about it, that initial negotiation about like, what are like, four pieces to the negotiating process?

Ashley Pare 48:00 Yes. So, I would say number one, is to become aware of your relationship with money. So, if you think about asking, where are you emotionally? Does it scare the crap out of you? Are you just a tiny bit scared? Are you like, head in the sand? You don’t even want to think about it – don’t even come at me with this? Are you like, Yep, I’m at my wit’s end, I’m ready to do this, right? So, get a temperature check on your own emotional feelings around asking for whatever you’re going to ask for. And that way, I tell my clients, don’t ever ask for something for the first time in front of your boss or in front of your client, like practice in the mirror in front of your dog, with a friend. So, get your emotional temper check on your relationship with money and ask if you need support to help it become more neutral. Practice, practice, practice. Number two, I would say is get very, very clear on your ideal outcome. What are you asking for? What do you really desire? What are you willing to accept and say yes to and just say it. You have to be clear, nobody can help you or give you what you really want, if they don’t know what it is you want. Right? As a boss, as a manager, if I have an employee, from an HR perspective, men will have no problem telling me Ashley, I’m not taking the sales job unless you’re going to give me 250 Minimum with this and that and that, right? And I’d say great, my company can’t afford that. Thank you so much, I’ll be in touch. Right? Whereas women in the past, even women in sales who talk about money for work, there was a lot more of like, what are you offering? What’s the range? So, I would say be very clear. I as a boss or a friend or an HR manager can’t give you what you need if I don’t know what you’re looking for. Because if you really want 20 grand and I think you want five and I give you five, you’re going to be offended and I have no idea so ask for what you want. The third one is just willing to walk away. Or rephrase that. Just trust that no is not the end, and you can walk away. There’s always more opportunity. There’s another choice. Don’t let “no,” stop you. Don’t let “no” be the place where you build up resentment and frustration and anger and just let all this stuff fester. So, if it doesn’t work for you, thanks, but no thanks. Start on that path to trust. Say “you know what, I wasn’t meant to be here and I’m going to figure out what’s next” and go for it.

Cecelia 50:33 That’s wonderful. Thank you.

Clemencia 50:34 Whoa number three, hit me like a lightning rod.

Ashley Pare 50:42 Alright Clem, what are you not walking away from? Now’s the time.

Clemencia 50:47 Now’s the time to think about this. Yeah, I mean, it’s scary to walk away. It’s scary. It’s the fear, of like, the unknown, you know, it’s like, oh, I know this one thing and if I walk away, I’m going to have to go out and who knows what’s going to happen? It’s like this unknown that is scary.

Ashley Pare 51:18 Because you think we are trained right and accustomed out of protection, to assume that bad things – the worst thing would happen. And this is where owning to your work from the inside out truly changes your life. If you can begin to accept, accept with an A and expect with an E, that amazing things, things bigger and bolder than your wildest dreams can happen, probably will happen. Right? Let that be, again, motivation versus the fear of what if it gets so much worse, and I won’t lie, going to therapy, working with a coach on this stuff, like it’s work. It’s not always fun. There are probably tears. Like, all of my clients have cried at some point. I have done this work and it can feel hard. But again, you know the path you’ve been on, and you know where you’re going there. So, try a different track.

Clemencia 52:16 Yes, and with that, Ashley, just beautifully came around and we looked it back and we’re going to close it. That was amazing. And this is definitely why I really wanted Ashley to come to the show because some people think that it’s like a very mechanical technical things like salary negotiation. It is such an internal, impersonal work, it’s really about yourself and it’s really like, working like when you’re healing this negotiation money, stuff, you’re also healing so much more. Just talking about this is just great. I mean, it is not just like 1234, it’s like, it’s like deep personal work, and I love this kind of stuff. I really wanted to hear it from you and really pick your brain about it. So, it was really, really awesome. Thanks so much.

Ashley Pare 53:26 Thank you. We really are healing this can heal generations back and generations forward. This is really powerful. Thank you.

Clemencia 53:35 When we have a whole generation of women that are empowered and walk into the negotiations like men do then this will be in the world. This was so amazing. If you want to get in touch with Ashley, she’s on Instagram. What is your Instagram? Ashley?

Ashley Pare 53:58 It is @IamAshleyPare on Instagram

Clemencia 54:04 Yes.

Ashley Pare 54:06 Yes, I am @IamAshleyPare.

Clemencia 54:11 And she has a gift for our listeners. She was so awesome for doing this. If you go to her website,, there will be a free resource which is a PDF that you can download.

Ashley Pare 54:29 Yeah, we’ll link to it. It will be a free guide on all of the questions that you can, should, and need to ask before you say yes to your next job. So, questions around your own relationship with money, questions to ask the company questions to ask your future manager. So, if you’re thinking about what’s okay for me to ask what’s not okay for me to say, this list of questions will help you navigate your next move from a place of power.

Clemencia 55:01 Yeah, so very easy to remember. And also, take that and put it on a post-it on your desktop. On your worth girl. Yeah. Thank you so much. To get in touch with us, we’re also on Insta and in on Tik Tok and on Twitter at Chancleta generation – Chancleta Gen if you’re on Twitter. And if you liked this podcast, share it, if you’re a woman, you better share with all your friends because I do not know one woman that wouldn’t benefit from this. I really do not. We have not nailed this. None of us have nailed this. Like, really, there’s so many things that we can unpack from this conversation and also just like, things to think about for ourselves. We have not nailed this. So please, if you’re a woman share this, because it’s important. This is how we make a different world. When women rise up, and we have equality, that’s when we change the world. So, with that, thank you so much and we will see you – we are actually going to take a break. This is our last episode of the season. Please follow us on social for the next date of the new season. So, thank you so much.